SRM FF Keeper League - Trubute to Lawdog League Win

Season 7 Champion: DrArcher
Season 6 Champion: DrArcher
Season 5 Champion: Trainwreck
Season 4 Champion: SG
Season 3 Champion: TyKixx
Season 2 Champ: MountainMan
Season 1 Champ: Kobe


Rosters can be found here: http://archive.fantasysports.yahoo.com/nfl/2011/8796


TENTATIVE Off-season Schedule:
~February 27, 2012: Call for rule change ideas.
~April 7, 2012: Rules changes finalized.
~April 7, 2012: Commitment to the 2012 season required AND posted agreement with the new league rulebook required.
~April 2012: Search for new owners begins (if necessary)
~April 23, 2012: Initial 8 list is due.
~May 7th, 2012: Rookie draft begins
~July 13: Keepers (1 min./5 max) finalized
~July/August 2012: Filler Draft


OFFICIAL WAIT LIST
1. CM
2. gco211
3. BiggyBoda
4. wsu2023 (was #1, MIA)

??. Living (MIA)
NONE. Anyone interested in joining the league, please PM BPow.

2012 Draft Order: (snake draft starting after R6; R7 is 1st reverse)
1. Woody (formerly JRidd) (2-11)
2. Buckeye (4-9)
3. Thomas (5-8)
4. Lawdogs (5-8)
5. TyKixx (5-8)
6. Mello (formerly Woody) (6-7)
7. Dolfan (6-7)
8. Hizzo (6-7)
9. Rattler (7-6) - quarter final loss
10. Bengals (8-5) - quarter final loss
11. J-Pass (8-5) - semi-final loss
12. BPow (10-3) - semi-final loss
13. Mesa (9-4) - Championship loss
14. Archer (10-3) - League Champ




Initial 8 lists:

Approved trades:

ROOKIE DRAFT
1. Woody --- Trent Richardson, RB, Cleveland Browns
2. Hizzo (via Buckeye) --- Robert Griffin III, QB, Washington Redskins
3. Thomas ---Andrew Luck, QB, Indianapolis Colts
4. Lawdogs --- Doug Martin, RB, Tampa Bay Bucs
5. TyKixx --- David Wilson, RB, New York Giants
6. Mello --- Justin Blackmon, WR, Jacksonville Jaguars
7. BPow (via Dolfan) --- Michael Floyd, WR, Arizona Cardinals
8. Hizzo --- Coby Fleener, TE, Indianapolis Colts
9. Rattler --- Random Tannenhill, QB Miami Dolfans
10. Bengals --- Brandon Wheeden, QB, Cleveland Browns
11. J-Pass --- LaMichael James, RB, San Fran, land of 1000 backs
12. Dolfan (via BPow) --- Chris Givens, WR, St. Louis Rams
13. BPow (via Dolfan, Mesa) --- Alshon Jeffery, WR-CHI
14. Archer --- Ronnie Hillman, RB.

Rules of the SRM Keeper League
Section 1: The League
1.1 The league will consist of 14 franchises.
1.2 The league will consider expansion (to 16 teams) or consolidation (to 12 teams) only IF 11 current owners vote in favor of expansion/consolidation AND: A) in the case of expansion, there is strong interest from two potential owners while at least 5 active SRM members are listed on the wait list, OR, B) in the case of consolidation, two current owners resign and there is 1 or no active SRM members listed on the wait list.
1.3 The length of the regular season is 13 weeks.
1.4 Weekly games are played head-to-head against opposing franchises.
1.5 All tie-breakers will be handled via Yahoo’s official rules and via Yahoo’s system.
1.6 The league office will consist of a league commissioner (BPow) and one assistant league commissioner (TBA).
1.7 Major changes to the rules can only be made through a league-wide vote during the off-season, prior to the declaration of kept players, unless deemed necessary by the league office for league integrity.
1.8 An owner can propose a change to the rules by calling for a vote from the entire league during the offseason. The commish will call for rule change suggestions, but rule change votes can be called for and made at any point in the offseason prior to the declaration of kept players.
1.9 League vote requires 8 of 14 owners to vote affirmative for a change to be accepted. In cases where more than 2 options are presented for a vote, the league office may choose to call for a revote with only the 2 highest-voted options considered OR may opt to accept the option that the majority of owners appear to be in favor of, in the league office’s estimation.
1.10 Any rule changes suggested after kept players are declared require unanimous league approval (exception: see 1.7, “deemed necessary by the league office for league integrity”).
1.11 The rookie draft will be one round in length, following the basic draft order.
1.12 The regular draft will be 16 rounds, with draft rules and style defined in a later section.
1.13 League integrity is the number one priority. As such, the league office may change, alter, or add rules to maintain league integrity.

Section 2: League Membership
2.1: All franchise owners must, at the time of admittance to the league, be active members of SRM; “active” is defined as posting regularly during the previous 6 months and having a post count of at least 750; exceptions will be made if no other suitable owners are available, at the discretion of the league office.
2.2: Teams will be required to commit to remaining in the league for the next league year by the date of the Super Bowl, or one week after all rule changes are finalized, whichever is later.
2.3: If a current owner misses any deadline in the off-season schedule, that owner will be granted a grace period of one week. At that point, the commish may begin looking for replacement owners and begin the process of team swapping; the commish may extend the deadline, as needed, during “slow” period in the off-season (when another deadline is not relatively close, per the judgment of the league office) or if the owner has given prior notice of his anticipated absence.
2.4: If an owner is inactive on SRM for more than 3 months, he can be considered missing-in-action and, after reasonable attempts have been made to contact the owner, his team will be considered “open” and the owner will be considered to have resigned.
2.5: If an owner leaves a bye week player or inactive player (cut from an NFL roster, suspended, on IR, etc.) on his starting roster for 3 consecutive weeks or more during the regular season, the owner will be considered inactive and his team will be forfeited.
2.6: If an owner resigns or is considered inactive (team forfeited), the league office will assume control of the team until a suitable replacement owner is found; the league office will set the starting lineup for the team during the regular or post season, draft for the franchise, and take any other required actions in the management of the franchise until a suitable replacement owner is found.

Section 3: Team Ownership Changes

3.1: When an owner resigns, the newly “open” team becomes available to the current owners before it is available to new owners.

3.2: Process for a current owner to acquire an “open” team: following the established basic draft order, owners may opt to swap their team for any open team or retain their current team; when a “team swap” occurs, the process resets and begins again. The process of announcing interest in team swapping will be at the discretion of the league office (PMing the commish by an established deadline – aka Supplemental Draft style – or posting in the official league thread, or other methods, may be used).

3.3: When all owners have had an opportunity to acquire (swap) all open teams, new owners will be considered for admittance into the league.

3.4: The “Wait List” will be followed, in order, when admitting new owners into the league.

3.5: Process for joining the “Wait List:” PM the league office or post in the current year’s official league thread on SRM. Potential owners will be added to the list in chronological order.

3.6: If a new owner is offered admittance to the league but does not reply within one full week, the next individual on the Wait List may be contacted; this deadline is a minimum wait period, and the league office may choose to wait more than one full week before offering admittance to the next individual on the Wait List. If the league office must contact a second potential owner for an open team, whichever potential owner responds first will gain admittance into the league.

Section 4: Drafting (in general) and Rookie Draft
4.1: The “basic draft order” will follow NFL rules for draft order: worst to first for the 8 non-playoff teams (consolation bracket teams are not considered playoff teams) based on yahoo rankings (record, with total points as the main tie-breaker); playoff teams will be added to the draft order as they are eliminated from the playoffs, with overall record serving as the tie-break, worst to best – that is, quarterfinal game losing teams will pick 9th and 10th, with the 9th pick going to the team with the lower regular season win % and the 10th pick going to the team with the higher regular season win %; semifinal game losing teams will pick 11th and 12th; the Championship Game loser will pick 13th, the League Champion will pick 14th.
4.2: The rookie draft will follow the basic draft order.
4.3: The rookie draft will be one round long.
4.4: Only rookies will be eligible to be taken in the rookie draft.
4.5: The trading of draft picks for the current year’s draft is permitted prior to and during the rookie draft. Next year’s draft picks may not be traded.
4.6: The rookie draft will be held via message board post, with each team having 36 hours to make a selection, with a rolling clock (no “down time” during the night hours, weekends, etc.).
4.7: If an owner fails to submit a draft pick within his allocated time, the owner will be “skipped” and the next owner may submit a draft pick at any time; the “skipped” owner may then submit a draft pick at any point thereafter from the remaining player pool.
4.8: If the last rookie draft pick has been made, but any owner has yet to submit a rookie draft pick, that “skipped” owner will have two days to make his selection or the league office will select for that owner (league-wide vote or discussion may be used by the league office); if the last franchise in the draft order fails to make a selection within the 36 hour time period, that owner will have an identical additional two days to make their selection before the league office will select for the “skipped”/”missing” owner.
4.9: The rookie draft will begin on a Monday, one or two full weeks after the NFL Draft has ended.
4.10: Each owner will choose to keep his rookie player (and forfeit their 16th round pick) OR keep their 16th round draft pick (and drop their rookie) by the deadline set by the league office. If an owner does not possess a 16th round pick, that owner will be required to forfeit his last/latest draft pick (as of the deadline) if he wishes to keep his rookie player.

Section 5: Regular Draft
5.1: The regular draft will be 16 rounds in length.
5.2: The regular draft will begin no earlier than July 15th, and the league office will give at least one week’s notice before the draft is set to begin.
5.3: The regular draft will follow the basic draft order for the first 6 rounds, and begin “snaking” in round 7 – that is, in odd-numbered rounds starting with Round 7, the draft order will be the reverse of the basic draft order.
5.4: All first round picks are automatically forfeited for kept players; picks in rounds 2 through 5 may also be forfeited for additional keepers beyond the first and up to the fifth keeper (maximum number).
5.5: The regular draft will be a slotted draft; a schedule will be established and each draft pick will have one specific hour in which the owner in possession of that pick may select one player.
5.6: An owner may select a player before his scheduled hour ONLY if all previous draft picks have already been posted.
5.7: Time slots for draft picks may begin as early as 11am EST (selection time of 11am to noon) and end as late as 11pm EST (slot time of 11pm-midnight).
5.8: To prevent false selections, if an owner sends a “proxy list” to another owner or otherwise asks another owner to make a draft selection on his behalf, said owner should post in the draft thread the name(s) of the owner(s) permitted to make the draft selection on his behalf.
5.9: If an owner fails to submit a draft pick within the pick’s allocated time slot, the owner will be “skipped” and the next owner may submit a draft pick at any time; the “skipped” owner may then submit a draft pick at any point thereafter from the remaining player pool.
5.10: If a pick has been skipped and a selection for that pick is not made within the next 28 draft slots, the league office will draft for the missing owner until that owner returns; failure to complete the draft or an absence of one week or longer by an owner, per prior league rules, may result in forfeit of franchise.
5.11: If the last regular draft pick has been made, but any owner has yet to submit a draft pick, that “skipped” owner will have one week to make his remaining selection(s) or the league office will select for that owner (league-wide vote or discussion may be used by the league office); if the last franchise in the draft order fails to make a selection within the 1 hour time slot, that owner will have an identical additional week to make his selection before the league office will select for the “skipped”/”missing” owner.
5.12: In any case where the regular draft would not be completed prior to the Monday night of the first week of the regular season (3 days prior to the first game of the season), the draft may be moved to Yahoo’s live draft system for completion; the league office will give at least 7 days notice of such a move to the league.

Section 6: Roster
6.1: Each franchise will maintain an active roster of 16 players. The IR position creates a maximum of 17 players possessed by a franchise.
6.2: It is the owner’s decision on how many players to carry at each position.
6.3: An owner may opt to carry less than a full roster.
6.4: An owner is not required to have a full starting roster at the start of the season.
6.5: If an owner continues to carry less than a full starting roster during the regular season, and the league office deems the team in risk of harming league integrity, the owner can be required to field a full starting roster. Such requirements will only be made if the team is question has a losing record after 3 games or has a losing record at any point thereafter.
6.6: Each roster will have one “IR” position; a player may only be placed in the IR position if the player has officially received the NFL’s Injury Reserve designation.
6.7: The IR position may be used at any point in time after the declaration of kept players, and anytime prior to the end of the fantasy football playoffs. Placing a player on the IR prior to the regular draft does not entitle a franchise to an additional draft pick.
6.8: The league will abide by Yahoo’s “Can’t Cut List.”
6.9: If a team drafts a player that is not in Yahoo’s system when rosters are loaded, that owner must keep one roster position open for said player or forfeit ownership of said player.


Section 7: Weekly Lineups
7.1: Each franchise may start up to 9 players each week. If you start less than 9 players, you receive no points for the empty slots. You can start: 1 QB, 2 RB, 2 WR, 1 TE, 1 K, 1 DEF, and one “flex” position (defined as RB, WR, or TE).
7.2: Yahoo’s deadlines for changing a team’s starting roster will be the rule of the league (typically, you may bench or start a player anytime prior to that player’s game starting).
7.3: Yahoo’s system will define what position(s) a specific player is eligible to be played at.
7.4: If an owner attempts to change his starting line-up “at the last second” and Yahoo will not permit such a change, the owner may contact league management via email, SRM PM, or the league message board (either on Yahoo or SRM) before the kickoff of the specific player’s game and league management can change the starting roster at a later date. Any request for a starting roster change that does not include both the name of the player to be started and the name of the player to be benched, or that includes any player that otherwise would not be eligible for status change “at the last second,” will be immediately denied.


Section 8: Trades
8.0: When you make a trade you need to remember the rules and think about the effects. If you are unsure of how it will affect you, check before finalizing the trade. We will not change the rules because a trade has caused you hardship. Trade carefully; you will have to live with the ramifications of your trade.
8.1: Trades between teams are unlimited. The league office is responsible for monitoring suspicious trades in the off-season, and something would need to be especially suspicious for a trade to be denied, and any teams involved in such a trade would be contact prior to the trade being denied.
8.2: Trades during the regular season will be conducted via Yahoo’s system and will be subject to a league vote for 2 days time.
8.3: Trading is “open” from the end of the fantasy playoffs until the league in-season trade deadline, according to Yahoo’s system and established before the beginning of the season. Trading is “closed” from the league in-season trade deadline until the fantasy playoffs end.
8.4: Trading players or draft picks is purely at the discretion of the franchise owner, but draft picks for future years can not be traded during the current season; beginning at the end of the fantasy playoffs, draft picks for the following offseason may be traded.
8.5: All keeper restrictions must be observed; trades for players prior to the “keeper deadline” do not entitle a team to keeping additional players beyond those permitted in the keeper restrictions, nor will a team be permitted to keep less than 1 player.
8.6: After kept players have been declared, teams may trade for additional kept players beyond those permitted by the keeper restrictions (that is, a team could trade for keepers beyond the 5th permitted in the keeper rules).
8.7: If an owner trades a 2nd to 5th round draft pick prior to declaring kept players, that owner will be required to keep a maximum of 1 less player than the round of draft pick traded; for example, if a team trades a 3rd round pick, that team will be forced to keep a maximum of 2 players.
8.8: If a team does not have draft picks to fill their roster, the roster will remain less-than-full until free agency begins.
8.9: If a team has a number of draft picks that would result in the team having more than 16 total players on the roster, the team will forfeit all remaining draft picks upon acquiring a 16th and final player.
8.10: The league office will handle any conflicts created by 8.6/8.7 and Yahoo’s draft application.

Section 9: Free Agency
9.1: Free Agency will begin at a time and date as decided by the league office, with at least 2 days notice given to the league, after full rosters have been loaded into Yahoo’s system.
9.2: Any player not on a league roster is considered a Free Agent.
9.3: The league will use a waiver system, as defined by Yahoo’s system.
9.4: All other Free Agency rules will be defined via Yahoo’s system, using the following settings:
Max Moves: No maximum
Max Acquisitions per Week: No maximum
Max Trades: No maximum
Waiver Time: 2 days
Waiver Type: Continual rolling list
Weekly Waivers Sunday – Tuesday


Section 10: Keepers, including “Initial 8” Lists
10.1: Each owner must keep a minimum of 1 player and may keep up to a maximum of 5 players during the off-season.
10.2: For each player kept, an owner must forfeit a draft pick; 1 keeper = 1st round pick, 2nd keeper = 2nd round pick, 3rd keeper = 3rd round pick, 4th player = 4th round pick 5th player = 5th round pick.
10.3: If an owner does not possess a draft pick in any of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th round due to trade, that owner can keep 1 player less than their earliest missing draft pick in the first 5 rounds. For example, if an owner does not possess a 3rd round draft pick, he can only keep 2 players; if an owner does not possess a 4th round pick, he can only keep 3 players; etc.
10.4: Owners will be required to trim their rosters to 8 total players (the “Initial 8”) by 14 days after the start of NFL Free Agency (or one week prior to the start of the NFL Draft, whichever is earlier).
10.5: The league office will establish a keeper deadline and give the league at least 3 weeks notice of said deadline. The deadline will be no earlier than June 1st and no later than August 15th (or one week before the regular draft, whichever is earlier).

Section 11: Playoffs
11.1: The playoffs will be run via Yahoo’s system.
11.2: The playoffs will begin in week 14 of the NFL season.
11.3: A total of 6 teams will qualify for the playoffs, and Yahoo’s system will handle seeding (by record) and establishing the playoff bracket (typically: 1 and 2 seeds with byes; 3 seed vs. 6 seed with winner facing the 2 seed; 4 seed vs. 5 seed with the winner facing the 1 seed).
11.4: Tiebreakers for seeding and for playoff games will follow Yahoo’s rules.
11.5: The “3rd place game” will be used to decide the official 3rd place ranked team for league history and reference; the 3rd place game or other consolation games will play no rule in establishing draft order or any other league business.


Section 12: Collusion and Cheating
12.1: Any team caught cheating or in collusion will immediately forfeit their ownership of the team.
12.2: Collusion is defined as two or more teams working together to improve one team unfairly. Collusion can only be shown to exist based on observed and official actions of the teams involved (examples: unfair / unbalanced trades; intentional roster manipulation including, but not limited to, leaving inactive/IR/OUT players in a starting lineup, benching multiple players who should clearly be started by an owner of integrity, dropping a player who would not have been dropped by an owner of integrity, or otherwise taking some roster action in an attempt to help another owner out; etc.)
12.3: Cheating is any action that helps give your team or another team an unfair advantage and would not be considered by a person of integrity to be honest and in good sportsmanship

Section 13: Yahoo League Settings
12.1: The league settings to be used in the Yahoo league are as follows:

Setting Value
Max Teams: 14
Scoring Type: Head-to-Head
Start Scoring on: Week 1
Can't Cut List Provider: Yahoo! Sports
Max Moves: No maximum
Max Acquisitions per Week: No maximum
Max Trades: No maximum
Trade Reject Time: 2
Trade Review: League Votes
Waiver Time: 2 days
Waiver Type: Continual rolling list
Weekly Waivers Sunday - Tuesday
Post Draft Players: Free Agents
Invite Sharing Tools: Disabled
Playoffs: Week 14, 15 and 16 (6 teams)
Playoff Reseeding: No
Divisions: No
Lock Eliminated Teams: No
Roster Positions: QB, WR, WR, RB, RB, TE, W/R/T, K, DEF, IR, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN
Fractional Points: Yes
Negative Points: Yes
Make League Publicly Viewable: No

Offense League Value
Passing Yards 30 yards per point
Passing Touchdowns 6
Interceptions -1
Rushing Yards 10 yards per point
Rushing Touchdowns 6
Reception Yards 10 yards per point
Reception Touchdowns 6
Return Yards 25 yards per point
Return Touchdowns 6
2-Point Conversions 2
Fumbles Lost -2
Offensive Fumble Return TD 6
Kickers League Value
Field Goals 0-19 Yards 3
Field Goals 20-29 Yards 3
Field Goals 30-39 Yards 3
Field Goals 40-49 Yards 3
Field Goals 50+ Yards 3
Point After Attempt Made 1
Defense/Special Teams League Value Yahoo! Default Value
Sack 1
Interception 2
Fumble Recovery 2
Touchdown 6
Safety 4
Block Kick 2
Points Allowed 0 points 10
Points Allowed 1-6 points 7
Points Allowed 7-13 points 4
Points Allowed 14-20 points 1
Points Allowed 21-27 points 0
Points Allowed 28-34 points -1
Points Allowed 35+ points -3

Im willing to help out as the Asst. Commish.

Also Im in favor of simplifying the scoring (10 yards= 1 pt for rushing and receiving..etc, etc, etc). That way I can keep track of scores in my head. Not a huge issue here if noone else wants to, would just be nice.

Im against expanding. 14 is big enough, I would actually lean towards only having 12.

You thinking no fraction points then? We have 10 yards/pt for rush and receiving, but 30 yards per point for passing. I generally think that works out well; a 300 yard passing game and a 100 yard rushing/receiving day results in the same 10 points.

Return yards are the one oddball to consider.

And I'm not a fan of expanding, either; I tried to make the rules for expanding tough, and contracting a little easier.

I'll be back for the 2012 season as long as rule 2.1 doesn't exclude me. I don't have a huge post count, but I visit the site pretty regularly. BPow, nice work on formalizing the rules.

Just an FYI... I got Mesa's rookie draft pick as part of the Stafford trade.

You're already in, so it doesn't apply to you. That rule can be changed in the future as needed, too; I just chose arbitrary numbers that I thought would work well in preventing some day 1 newbie from joining the wait list and getting a shot at a team.

Yeah I would say no fractional points. As far as return yards, Im usually against having individual guys count for it and rather have it as a D/ST where you pick a team. However since were so deep its nice having a few more guys that normally dont get points be able to be useful as kick returners.

Fractional points are good due to the lack of custom options for tie-breakers. If we could create our own tie-breaker rules, I'd be in favor of no fractional points, but unless Yahoo adds that option in 2012, I'd argue for fractional points.

We can drop a safety down to 2. It's just so rare, we made it more at some point for fun.

I like the 3-4-5 setup for FGs -- 4 for 40s, 5 for 50+, 3 for 39 or lower. As for penalizing, I don't like going with the full -3 for a miss, because sometimes bad coaching decisions put kickers in a bad position with an attempt at a long kick that isn't likely. Maybe -2 or -1 though.

INTs at -2 is fine by me, if TDs are still 6. 4pt passing TDs and 1 pt TDs are fine, too.

I think the point differential between the QB position and other skill positions works its way out by the differences between a great RB and the remaining guys, or a top WR and the average starter. Maybe I'm wrong; I'm sure one of the FF sites has done some research and posted something about it; I'll keep my eyes open for something along those lines.

As for yards against for D... not a fan. Yards don't win games for D's - preventing points does. And while we use yards for offensive players, allowing some yards on D isn't always a bad thing, but gaining points on O is always a good thing.

BUMP

Still have yet to hear from.....

1. JRidd (2-11) -- hasn't posted in months... but did log on the other day after I PM-ed him, no reply or posts though.
3. Thomas (5-8)
5. TyKixx (5-8)
6. Woody (6-7)
11. J-Pass (8-5) - obviously still on SRM

Potential rule changes that could be put to a vote if the interest is there....

1. No fractional points
2. 4pt TDs for QBs and/or changing yardage/TD points in general.
3. PPR
4. yardage points for/against a defense (Current: nothing yardage related)
5. INT changed to -2 (Current: -1)

While INTs and fumbles are both turnovers, I feel like INTs can be more flukey while fumbles are more focused on a specific player. Whether its a QB fumbling the ball on a sack, or an RB giving up the ball on a run, or a WR getting separated from the ball after a catch... its on that player. A QB can get an interception on his record when the WR tipped the ball, the WR stopped on his route, and so on.

I tohught I already re committed in another thread? If not, here ya go. I have no opinions on any rule changes, I'd prefer to leave everything the way it was.

for this league, I hope Peyton signs with Tennessee... to have Manning throwing to Britt, Brady throwing to Lloyd and Rodgers throwing to Jennings... I will finally have some good at the WR position

My vote is add PPR, but keep everything else the same.

I forgot to check the old thread, good call.

Given that you're still posting mocks here, I just assumed you'd still be in.

And how often do those things happen, as compared to the QB throwing a pass that a WR slows down and allows to be intercepted, turns the wrong way, runs the wrong route, or tips the ball to a defender? The WR is more likely to be a partial cause of a turnover than the QB on a mixed up handoff, than the center on a missed snap, than the WR to not really being responsible for his own catch.

As for some of your specific examples... yes, a D should be penalized for giving up a TD on a short field - they still have up a score. The WR still had to make a catch on that tipped ball. And the WR still caught the ball for that TD, and the QB still had to make an accurate throw....

I vote for INT's to be -2 pts.

im in sorry i didnt know i had to confirm now.

i dont mind the fractional points. if i see a player had 117 yards rushing is 11. 7 not to hard to figure out. i like ppr, no yards against the d and -2 for a pick is fine with me.